I am over Muslim communities from the same locality celebrating Eid on three different days because they believe that “sighting the moon” in Saudi Barbaria is more accurate than astronomical observatory data. I am over British employers feeling obliged to accommodate this nonsense by giving Muslims days off at short notice due to uncertainty relating to the date.
I am over conservative members of my community trying to impose religious teachings, practices and gender segregation in community gatherings, weddings etc and expecting women to cover their hair during a prayer that none of us asked them to perform.
I am over the complete ignorance by Muslims and non Muslims (particularly UK politicians and media) alike of the fact that “Muslim communities” contain non-religious, spiritual people like me, as well as Atheist people and Agnostic people.
I am over my community b*tching about “The Satanic Verses”, even though most of them have never read it. I am over my community issuing death threats to people who merely suggest that evolution might be reconcilable with the Muslim faith.
I am over UK politicians like Ken Livingstone kissing the arses of Islamist anti-human rights fundamentalists like Yusuf al Qaradawi and pretending to know what non religious cultural Muslims [like me] need and want from life in the UK.
I am over UK politicians thinking that they will find out what I want by speaking to only bearded self appointed “community leaders” who believe that a married woman can never be raped by her husband. I am over UK politicians thinking that headscarf donning women (defined purely by their modesty and “Muslimness”) or the Sayeeda Warsis of the world represent me. Their homophobia, misogyny and dishonesty is NOT something that I identify with. I am NOT defined singularly by the faith I was born into, nor am I represented by demagogues who wish to win support for their incompetent party leader.
I am over the BBC having a show called “The Big Questions” that invites people like Mehdi Hasan and Salma Yaqoob who bully anyone who disagrees with them with charges of “Islamophobia” instead of engaging in authentic dialogue. I am over people such these being incapable of entertaining the idea that not every single criticism of Islam equates to Islamophobic bigotry. I am over the presenters of this show (Nicky Campbell and sometimes Kaye Adams) pandering to traditionalists in an attempt to appear anti-racist when in fact what they’re doing, is implying that anyone with a different culture or religion has different minimum human rights to the rest of British citizenry. Nothing new for the BBC. It has perfected cultural relativism to a tee. I am over the BBC not being aware of the fact that when debating such intellectual topics as “Does Islam need PR”, they should NOT be placing people on opposing sides of the argument physically within inches of one another when they know that the anti-secular bullies get so aggressive and abusive during pretty much every show. I am over the fact that the BBC doesn’t understand how nauseating it is for a secularist to have to explain her arguments while sitting right next to a permanent victim such as Salma Yaqoob who gets offended at people as harmless as Gita Sahgal referring to Muslims as “they”. What other pronoun was she supposed to use?!
I am over being told that my views are Islamophobic, particularly when I come from a Muslim family, have a Muslim name and am profiled at the airport every time I fly because of it, regardless of the fact that I’m Agnostic.
Fundamentalists "Muslims Against Crusades" burning poppies on Armistice Day 2010. London, UK. SOURCE: Sky News
I am over being told that my views are offensive. I’m offended by my community’s homophobia, misogyny and racism in Pakistan, the UK and elsewhere. This doesn’t mean that I have the right (or the inclination) to start burning symbols of remembrance, effigies or chanting “death to ______” or blowing stuff up. Yet people like ME are the ones being called “militant” secularists? When’s the last time a secularist burned effigies and blew stuff up? Secularists do not stunt critique by bursting into Mosques and telling DIY Imams to “Burn in hell! You’re offending me!”, even if we do desperately wish that they would stop spewing their hate.
I am over people not understanding that that secularism and atheism are not the same thing.
I am over converts to Islam like the Kristiane Backers, Yvonne Ridleys and Myriam Francois Cerrahs of the world patronising me and countless others by telling us that we have no right to be angry at our ex co-religionists. That WE are the “intolerant” ones. Painting pink fluffy pictures and telling us that what we see the majority of Muslims practicing is not “real Islam”. You may say that, but most Muslims would disagree with you I’m afraid. I am over these very same converts telling me that the misery I have seen people endure around me from childhood, thanks to Islamic dogma, the racism, homophobia and misogyny of Muslim communities in the UK and elsewhere along with the repeated moral cowardice is all a figment of my imagination. That my experiences count for nothing. I am over people who haven’t lived it, telling me how the hell I should feel.
I am over people from my community telling me that pseudo intellectual [medical doctor] hate preachers like “Dr.” Zakir Naik have anything to contribute to an understanding of theology and spirituality. It’s like taking your car to McDonalds when the brakes fail. I mean, get a clue.
I am over my community letting their sons go out until the early hours of the morning whilst refusing to extend the same privileges to daughters purely on the basis that they are female. I am over asking these parents why they do this and getting the response “because boys don’t get raped/pregnant”.
I am over my community teaching their children that their religion and culture is superior to all others, particularly when they know little or nothing but caricatures about any other culture or religion but their own.
I am over members of my community putting pre-pubescent girls in a hijab when they are not even old enough to understand or give consent to this. I am over the fact that so many parents don’t understand that they are sexually objectifying their own daughter since the intention of the hijab is predominantly to conceal the sexual attraction of women from men.
I am over community and family “honour” depending on the sexual behaviour of women as opposed to those who harm and murder women or fail to condemn the harm and murder of women. Women who just tried to claim their BASIC human rights.
I am over men and women in my community and from outside it, harping on about the “choice” to veil whilst simultaneously ignoring the plight of the women who have NO CHOICE but to veil in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim majority countries. (Here is an excellent article by Karima Bennoune that puts things into context.)
I am over my community telling women to dress differently to prevent being raped instead of telling men NOT TO RAPE.
I am over members of my community thinking that they have the right to dictate whom their grown child marries. I am over such arranged, coerced or forced marriages disintegrating due to a number of factors including incompatibility and parents acting surprised that it didn’t work out.
I am over people insisting that their children only marry Muslims, or Pakistanis or Indians while simultaneously complaining about the religious discrimination or racism that they face in the UK. Time to look up “irony”.
I am over my community restricting the social interactions of daughters and then wondering why so many Muslim women are finding it difficult to find a life partner. I am totally over mothers telling their daughters “women have to compromise more”. You should just “settle”.
I am over my community forcing their children to conceal their social lives from them and then being disappointed and furious when they discover that their child has done totally normal, healthy things like hang out with platonic friends of both sexes, gone on a date or had a girlfriend, boyfriend or both.
I am over my community devaluing white women by calling them “loose” or “slutty”. I am over my community making sex something sinful, illicit, never to be spoken about and then being surprised when they hear of cases of the Pakistani rape gangs from Derby and from Telford abusing white British girls.
I am over people from my community assuming that everyone in their community is heterosexual, and abusing their child if he/she isn’t.
I am over members of my community being intensely shallow and putting more emphasis on marriage, money and appearance than any other aspects of their children’s lives.
I am over people being offended that my husband and I danced together at our own wedding. I am also over the fact that I was unable to kiss my wonderful husband on the lips on my wedding day for the same reason. Apparently love offends.
I am over abusive, patriarchal fathers in my community choosing careers and many other life options for their children against their will, whilst mothers stand by and facilitate the misery by saying nothing, or joining forces with their tyrannical husbands.
I am over my community performing the worst in education in Britain because of it’s unwillingness to entertain ideas or concepts that come from outside their tribe.
I am over the lack of reasoned, intellectual thought and unwillingness to propose solutions to problems that are rife within my community.
I am over my community’s unwillingness and complete failure to challenge extremism, consanguineous marriages, honour crimes and forced marriages.
I am over the people who maintain friendships with unfaithful, hyper-promiscuous married men while excommunicating women who divorce due to emotional abuse, adultery, domestic violence or for wanting to spend their life with someone who truly loves and respects them.
I am over the lack of moral courage and honesty in my community. The not speaking out when an injustice is done, the deafening silence on child abuse by religious leaders, the “what-about-ery” of “but Catholic priests did it too you know?”.
Finally, I am over the cultural relativist academics, NGOs, public figures and policy makers that say “it’s ok, it’s part of their culture, we should tolerate difference” and pretend to be anti-racist. You are the exact opposite. Human rights apply to humans, and in case you hadn’t noticed, cultural, religious and other minorities comprise of…yes…you got it…humans. Who on earth do you think you are fooling?
***
Acknowledgements: This post was inspired by Irshad Manji’s Moral Courage Project and Eve Ensler’s brilliant Huffington Post article on the subject of rape.
***
Note for readers wishing to republish any of my posts: Thank you for reading. Please respect my intellectual property and my copyright and leave all the identifying information intact. Feel free to “re-blog” and share my work, but please do not reprint or republish my work in any other format without my permission. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
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this was beyond excellent
saudi barbaria…LOL!!!
Good post. I find myself in a similar position.
Love it.
I didn’t catch ‘Saudi Barbaria’ until HJ pointed it out.
I am trying to introduce a similar play on words, ‘Moroness Warsi’.
I am an atheist man married to a Pakistani (Catholic) woman, I live, and have for many years, in Pakistan. I have posted this in just about every forum I am a member of as well as on my FB page. Rant on….you have my complete support.
Thank you very much for your support. If I make even one person feel less isolated, my job is done. Thank you for sharing it with friends and acquaintances. Feel free to drop me an email any time on opinionista.wordpress@gmail.com to let off steam
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I’m Muslim and I relate to everything you’ve said here. There’s a reason I come home pissed every day and it’s because all this is the truth.
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An excellent piece, thank you
Throughout your ‘rant’ (I would hardly call speaking truthfully ‘ranting’, any more than I would call a critical secularist ‘militant’) you repeatedly write that you ‘are over’ all these (what seems to me to be) endemic problems. What you do not mention is how you are over them, how these are problems that no longer concern you or that you’ve managed to put behind you or mitigate or eliminate from your life. By being over something, usually we mean we have come to terms with whatever the situation may be, that we’ve accepted these realities, these histories, and have now moved on. So I’m rather confused about how you mean this title phrase. Could you clarify?
Thank you for your comments Tildeb. Essentially, my post is meant to be a satire. A way of denouncing practices, ideologies and policies through the use of irony. I hope that I’ve answered your question. Best wishes.
You’re welcome.
I was very much hoping you had a tactic that could be applied, but alas! Satire will have to do.
I think the assumption of identity – as if an accident of birth was in some way definitive and meaningful in who and what we are as individuals – has to become much more scrutinized and heavily criticized as a causal factor in the continuation of these barbaric social practices. Just because I’m born female doesn’t mean gender has to be a significant defining factor in who I am or what my capabilities are any more than being a member of Jainist parents means I have to be defined by their religious identity.
I think we need to fight much harder in exposing how and why these identity labels are founded on assumptions of meaning about groups that are factually wrong in reality rather than on individual qualities of character that are factually true in reality. But the group identity way of thinking gains traction when we go along with the labels… right up until we find ourselves at odds with what they mean in action. In other words, we have to do our individual part to reject the group identities, reject the group labels as meaningful, even when we might be tempted to favour them for convenience and preference.
For example, we might like to be considered a member of the ‘Asian’ community when it comes to being a meaningful consideration for school entrance qualifications but rejected when it comes to being meaningful to describe driving skills. We might like preferential treatment for being a member of a visible minority for employment opportunities but reject the identity for additional airport screening!
It just seems to me that assuming group identifiers to be acceptable while criticizing what these identifiers are associated with presents us with a quandary: can we have one without the other? Can we address in substantive ways what you criticize without necessarily rejecting the very labels of heritage and familial association to groups you use in your title?
I think that humans will always find ways to label themselves and others (however much I wish we didn’t). What I wish to move away from are homogenising labels like “Muslims” or “Pakistanis” in terms of the way in which they are used by the media, politicians and in public discourse. The views of people like me don’t really factor anywhere. But you are right, paradoxically, we do end up having to employ some of the labels that we are in fact railing against.
The purpose of me labelling myself in the title is so that others can understand the perspective of the writer and see that people with my multiple identities do exist and do have something to say on what is happening in their communities away from the discourse of fundamentalists that is often used to represent the views of people like me.
The whole area of identity politics and social constructs fascinates me immensely, however the purpose of this particular post was mostly to ridicule and denounce what I regard to be unjust and intellectually dishonest ideologies and positions. Identity politics is something that I’m very interested in academically. I’ve touched upon it in previous posts however, I don’t know if I could do the subject justice in a blog post.
This is brilliant. Thank you for a fair, just and clear sense of what is real in the world. Keep up the good work.
Thank you very much Louise. I shall do my best.
As another agnostic person from an Islamic background, I must say that lot of your views do come-out as Islamophobic. Those exact same sentences are used by the Islamophobes to justify their hatred against Muslims.
I’m just going to quote this bold sentence here:
” When’s the last time a secularist burned effigies and blew stuff up?”
Have you been living under a rock since 2003? The secularist have bombed entire nations in the name of spreading secular democracy in Iraq causing thousands of death. I’m not even going to go to the murders of millions during the world wars.
Just because you are agnostic you somehow think you shouldn’t be profiled in Airports. It’s like somebody who is half black complaining he/she is half white and shouldn’t be treated like the other blacks.
After reading your article, you seem to be a person who is bitter against Muslims as a whole. I myself have told my family about my views in Islam and they still accept me as I am. I guess I’m lucky. It’s probably why I feel very inclined to defend them and their faith.
Hello Javed.
Regarding this //Have you been living under a rock since 2003? The secularist have bombed entire nations in the name of spreading secular democracy in Iraq causing thousands of death. I’m not even going to go to the murders of millions during the world wars.//
I hate to break this to you, but Tony Blair? He’s Catholic. Yes. Catholic. George Bush? Episcopal Church of the USA. He even told his supporters that “God wanted him to be the President”. So, there’s the first factual inaccuracy in your argument.
Secondly, as I just explained to Jack Fruit below //The UK is NOT a secular country under the law. The Head of State is the Queen, she is also the Head of the Church of England and has the power to select which Bishops enter the House of Lords under her “royal prerogative”. If you want a secular state, you will need to remove the monarchy for starters.// We have BISHOPS, in the House of Lords. This is not a secular government.
Regarding this //Just because you are agnostic you somehow think you shouldn’t be profiled in Airports. It’s like somebody who is half black complaining he/she is half white and shouldn’t be treated like the other blacks.//
So you believe that people should be treated differently on the basis of race? Wow, what a compelling anti-racist argument. Please get a clue. We don’t call black PEOPLE “blacks” anymore. Just as we don’t call white people “whites”. Black people ARE people and actually prefer to be called Afro-descendants. Now, just to correct you on your straw man argument, for your information, I don’t think that anyone should be “profiled” unless there is concrete evidence that it thwarts terrorism. Profiling has too much potential for abuse of power.
What I HAVE stated is that people like me bear the brunt for the actions of others with which they have nothing in common, and this pisses me off. Why are you surprised? By Islamists blowing up stuff and conservative, patriarchal minded Muslims behaving in particular manners which brings anyone connected to their religious identity into disrepute “I” am having to suffer consequences for views that I do not hold purely because the majority (not the minority) hold views that are a fine line away from the views of Islamists. The views and problems I’m talking about are things like homophobia, unwillingness to address extremism, honour crime, patriarchal values and violence against women, calling for a man’s death for writing a book, calling a man an apostate for merely SUGGESTING that evolution might be reconcilable with the Islamic faith, consanguineous marriage and how Muslims have the highest rate of disability, racism towards others despite knowing what racism feels like, lack of literary tradition, bringing religion into everything, the erosion of the rights of Muslim women, the targetted sexual abuse of Caucasian Britain girls…do I need to go on?
Damn right I am bitter towards many of my ex co-religionists. Why shouldn’t I be? Are all these things I list above, something to be proud of? I mean, have you actually read the entire post? This does not however mean that I hate all Muslims. Islamic teachings (due to their unfortunate ambiguity) have produced complete assholes of the likes of OBL, Abu Hamza, Yusuf al Qaradawi and so on. Islam, has also created absolute marvels of human beings such as Ibn Rushd, Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Arabi, Rumi, Omar Khayyam. The reason why I reject religions however, is because for me? My common sense and rationality causes me to think and act with more moral consistency than a religious book that in one place says “kill the non believers” then in another place says “you may do business with people of the book” and then in another place says “you may marry the people of the book”. I understand why some people NEED faith as a moral compass. Just I am not one of those people. I also think that the fact that only 1 % of the prison population in the US is made of Atheists speaks for itself (there are no stats on UK prisons in this regards or I would quote it).
I completely accept the validity of religious texts as books to be studied as historical artefacts, like any other piece of literature. However, I completely reject their validity as a moral compass or sacred text that cannot be critiqued or discussed. Yes they contain good messages but they also contain homophobic, racist, misogynistic and violent messages. Something that is so inconsistent MUST be critiqued, particularly when so many are using it as a guide for life.
I hope I have addressed your concerns about me being Islamophobic. It seems that this term gets thrown around every time someone wants to prevent genuine criticism. Thanks for confirming the stereotype Javed.
For the record Javed, I completely reject the idea that secular democracy can be “spread” anywhere. The War on Terror was not only carried out under false pretenses, but I regard it as the biggest humanitarian and foreign policy catastrophe in recent times. Systems of governance come from the people and only from the people. This idea of spreading democracy is only something that a fundamentalist nutjob could come up with…Cue Blair and Bush. If you’re interested in reading about comparisons between the fundamentalism of the US and the fundamentalism of Islamists, you might want to pick up a copy of this. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clash-Fundamentalisms-Crusades-Jihads-Modernity/dp/185984457X
No, Javed, the secularists have not been burning effigies and blowing stuff up.
The term ‘modern liberal secular democracy’ has not evolved to mean ‘Go forth and bomb thy neighbour’. It is a term to describe a political system whereby authority to govern comes from those who are governed… and not some other source of authority. What you see in Iraq and Afghanistan and throughout the ‘Arab Spring’ – doomed to failure one and all – is not secular democracy. Democracy without equal legal rights for the individual – the individual legal authority necessary to empower those who would govern in its name – is nothing more than mob rule preparing the ground for the next tyrant.
Unless and until legal respect for the individual is established in these places, then you do not have full blown secularism… one of the fundamental planks, let us not forget, being freedom of religion.
Great piece. Thanks for spending the time to put it together. I am a white Brit married to a muslim asian lady with many many muslim friends who I know will empathise completely with this!
This is wonderful. Thank you for posting it.
Thank you for writing this.
I can’t imagine having to confront all that in my ‘community’ on a daily basis: to have to suppress your views and feelings all the time. Great post theop and great comment tildeb. Thanks.
tildeb says,
“I was very much hoping you had a tactic that could be applied, but alas! Satire will have to do.”
Satire does very well and has proven to b ea very effective tactic. By repeating “I am over. . ., opinionista shows how much she has had to get over/accept/fight against.
As I was reading this post, I kept thinking about “I Want a Wife” first printed in the premiere issue of Ms. magazine January 1972.
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/feministtexts/a/i_want_a_wife.htm
Satire can be an excellent method for consciousness-raising and is sometimes the only way to reveal just how widespread and ingrained a problem really is. I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise but was hopeful that opinionista had found a way to maintain certain positive elements of her various identities while managing to eject the negative.
At present I’m just enjoying being human
At present I’m just enjoying being human
An excellent article, thank you. Reading this has made me realise how little I really know about Muslim communities. I hope that some MPs read it too
Well done -many us are over ALL religious harpings . . .
+1
Very refreshing piece. I’ve just skyped this to an aquaintance who is Muslim and teaches at a madrassa in the south of the UK. I wonder if he will respond.
That would be a most interesting reply.
Thank you.
This is the link for UK MP’s http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/ . Why not send them the link I’ve sent it to mine.
Thank you for both the link and for sharing my rant with your MP!
As a further thought why not send it to a few MNA’s and MPA’s in Pakistan as well? most of them could do with a damn good kick up the backside!
Thank you for writing this.
More power to your elbow!
Are you being intentionally obtuse? It is pretty obvious from the context, that when she says that she is over this or that, she means that she’s pissed off by it and won’t put up with it any longer. It most certainly does mean that she has reached an accommodation with the many things that annoy her. You are right, however, when you state that the problems are endemic. I would put it more strongly and claim that they are systemic.
English is a wonderful language because its meaning depends upon the context. If it is read literally, then its subtleties are lost.
David Amies
I suspect you’re referring to my take on the use of ‘over it’ and being obtuse. Not at all. But the way I got ‘over it’ was by rejecting my use of the labels as being personally meaningful in my identity and I was wondering if that was any part of Opinionista’s response, so I asked.
You weren’t able to kiss your husband at the wedding?!?!?! This world is bloody doomed…
Thank you for the strong, sharp post – I hope there are more people like you from all cultures who have moved on to the human rights consciousness – not ass-lickery, faux tolerance for all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons and self-righteous ignorance. Stay strong and opinionated!
I think this is an excellent, very honest and thought provoking piece.
I must admit, I found “I am over . . .” confusing. I have been speaking English over 60 years,but even “I have got over” in this context would seem a bit peculiar to me. I find that this usage, unfortunately, detracts from its readability. Is it dialectal? Is it something to do with different generations having different usage?
It’s definitely a generational evolution of language and some might say it’s an Americanism. See this article (which partly inspired me), by the amazingly talented Eve Ensler http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eve-ensler/over-it_b_1089013.html
Great rant!… I really don’t understand why secular countries buckle under these Islamic Neanderthals. If the immigrants cannot live by their standards, they deserve to be kicked out.
Thanks. Allow me to point out a few problems with your comment. The UK is NOT a secular country under the law. The Head of State is the Queen, she is also the Head of the Church of England and has the power to select which Bishops enter the House of Lords under her “royal prerogative”. If you want a secular state, you will need to remove the monarchy for starters. The UK is however a secular SOCIETY where most people do not take religion particularly seriously (do not attend a place of worship regularly) or affiliate themselves with a particular religion. http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/02/baroness-warsi-and-her-gang-of-pious-politicos-are-out-of-step-with-the-nation Secondly, not all Muslims are “neanderthals” as you describe. What I am criticising mainly is Islamist, fundamentalist and literalist inspired interpretations of Islam that are prevailing in the UK due to many different factors. Thirdly, many Pakistani Muslims (e.g. my generation) are not “immigrants”. They are British citizens just as I am one. They were born here. What do you propose to do with them when they act up? You can’t DEPORT a British citizen who happens to have Pakistani origin or any other origin for that matter. The “they deserve to be kicked out” racist rhetoric belongs on the pages of the Daily Fail and EDL groups. It will not wash on this page. Please go and educate yourself on why fundamentalism is on the increase, then comment…without the racist overtone.
As someone once wrote:
Good people do good things,
Evil people do evil things,
But, for good people to do evil things takes religion.
Tell that to the communists.
What does that even mean?
Amna, a short study of the history and development of religion will show that the eastern orthodox church considered itself superior to the western Roman church. The shenanigans of the church of Rome (lies, trickery and deceipt to name but a few) were seen as not following the truth path of Christianity, therefore the head of the eastern church was an order of magnitude nearer to god than the western pope – in this case the Czar.
When the communists murdered Czar Nicholas in 1917 Stalin, who trained as a priest, took over in the Czar’s stead. He was by nature a monster but the church itself remained under the leadership of its Patriarch but under the thumb of Stalin. Of course being a murderer and killing millions of his people helped. But don’t worry the communists knew. The Russians have always liked strong, powerful un-democratic leaders and history is replaying itself at the moment with Putin.
Mindblowing!
I am over misandric anti-muslim white-washers of racism whom see themselves as the core neutral judges of everyone else and their lives in their contexts.
I am over misogynists (both male and female) calling me a misandrist. I am over people thinking that my rant is about Islam when it is about the behaviour of Muslims within a particular context that is pretty damn clear from my post. I am over white-washers who prefer to sweep injustice under the carpet unless it’s a non Muslim perpetrating the injustice (i.e. Israel). I am over such individuals labelling me “anti-Muslim” for writing a critique of what I have seen with my own eyes since I can remember. I am over people telling me that my view is irrelevant.
Nowhere have I said that I am the “core neutral judge” in this situation. I simply expressed an opinion. If you had any intellectual honesty and weren’t suffering with an acute case of victim complex mixed in with online whineoria, you wouldn’t write so much twoddle.
Feckin’ A, Woman. Many a time I want to scream “I’m sick of Muslims” despite being one myself, and every time I read your post I feel glad to know I’m not alone in my frustrations. The victim complex, amoung other things, never ceases to piss me off.
I’m over people confusing culture with religion.
I’m over people blaming everything that’s wrong with the world on religion.
I am sick to death of people spreading malicious lies about my religion.
I’m done with people acting like the world owes them something because of their crappy lives.
I’m done with people acting like they have to prove their views count by slandering, putting down and attacking other people’s views and beliefs simply because they don’t agree.
I’m done with people trying to force me into a margin they’ve created with their narrow mindedness, because of my dress code and values.
I’m done with ‘feminists’ nitpicking and continuously shrieking about the unfairness of their gender, not knowing that; by setting man as a standard you give them a false sense of superiority. Not knowing that they have already been granted a standard and rights 1400+ years ago. That most men are lost without the women in their lives, though your culture tries to tell you otherwise. Men are men, women are women, GET. OVER. IT.
I am sick of the Irshad Manjis of the world picking fights left, right and centre, throwing miss aimed accusations at everyone but the very few they agree with.
I am sick of people who don’t understand something and yet still hate and attribute wrong with it (Like the fact the hijab is worn ‘predominantly to conceal the sexual attraction of women from men’, no. No it is not. It is an order from the Creator of the Universe. Simples.)
I am sick of people like you, Manji, Amina W., trying to fix something that isn’t broken.
I am sorry if your culture doesn’t sit well with you. I am sorry you don’t understand what a beautiful religion Islam is. ‘Muslim heritage’ by the way, doesn’t exist. Islam is not something that can be inherited or passed on etc.
I am sorry you’re an agnostic, that you live and still doubt the existence of God. Most of all, I am sorry about whatever made you so hateful and bitter about Islam. But I am done with people I don’t even know insulting me, my beliefs and comparing Yusuf al Qaradwi to OBL and insulting DR. Zakir Naik, who are, and always will be, better than you, Manji and her flock; acting like you know best because you hate everything you don’t understand.
Frankly love, I am over with ignorant, egocentric, extremist and downright disrespectful people. I am over people like you.
I am over people confusing my criticism of Muslims and Pakistanis with a criticism of Islam.
I am over people confusing my critique of dogma with religion.
I am sick to death of people with confirmation bias and victim complex trying to shut people up by accusing those who criticise their modus operandi, of “malicious lies”. Do you know what a lie is? A lie is saying to your son or daughter that they’re going on holiday to Pakistan then forcing them to marry their cousin. A lie is telling your son or daughter that you love them when in fact you just wish to control their very being and produce an exact carbon copy of yourself.
I’m done with idiots thinking that my life is crappy just because I express opinions with a voice that is loud and clear. I am blessed to have the life that I have and the people that I have in my life. I live humble existence full of love and kind people in my life because I reject anyone from my circle who is ok with sweeping injustice under the carpet.
//I’m done with people acting like they have to prove their views count by slandering, putting down and attacking other people’s views and beliefs simply because they don’t agree.//
Which part of my post was slanderous? Think you could prove that in a court of law? I criticised positions that caused discrimination, not “beliefs”.
//I’m done with people trying to force me into a margin they’ve created with their narrow mindedness, because of my dress code and values.//
I have no issue with anyone’s dresscode as long as a) it doesn’t impinge on the rights of others (e.g. right to security) b) it is a true choice.
I’m done with idiots not knowing what feminism actually is yet thinking that they are qualified to comment on it. Feminists don’t want to be regarded as men. We want to be regarded as human…by governments, by laws….across the world…not just in Muslim majority states. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Are-Women-Human-International-Dialogues/dp/0674021878
I’m done with idiots telling me that Muslim women had their rights in writing 1400 years ago as though this changes what is happening in reality. As though Muslim women in Muslim states do not face extreme corporal punishment, imprisonment and death for crimes such as “alleged” adultery, attending a mixed gathering, letting their hijab slip or for simply going to the police because they were raped. As though the feminisation of poverty across the world were simply a myth. Look at the facts and figures here http://unwomen-nc.org.sg/gender_issues_datasheet_1.shtml
I’m done with people like YOU fighting for the rights of women to cover but not giving a damn about the rights of women NOT to cover. These violations are equal. The choice lies with the woman, not the state.
I’m sick of idiots telling me that there are more differences between men and women than similarities. Both men and women, while biologically and anatomically different, enter the world with the genetic inheritance of a mother and a father and from that respect human nature is androgynous, neutral, and equal. How obvious is this?
As for the hijab, I don’t care if an adult woman chooses to wear it, but how dare anyone condone the sexual objectification of a little girl. It’s not simply an order from the creator, even Muslim scholars have not reached a consensus on this. How have you? What are your qualifications in Islamic studies to make such a judgement?
I’m sick of women like you looking down on others who don’t wear the hijab and being surprised when people treat them with the same condescension that you dish out.
Everything has a reason. If you weren’t meant to ask for reasons, then we wouldn’t be bestowed with the capacity for it and the first word in the Qur’an would not be “Iqra”. By reading, one learns and one questions. It is so lame that you are willing to submit to literalist interpretations of uneducated mullahs, muftis etc. You are the reason why Muslims contribute nothing even comparable to the times of Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Arabi, Rumi etc today. Because you think that your pseudo-intellectual understanding of your religion through going to sisters circles and “Googling stuff” makes you some kind of authority on religion and morality….that your views are more important to the views of someone like me. You possess no humanity and you see none in anyone else unless they absolutely conform to your own beliefs.
//‘Muslim heritage’ by the way, doesn’t exist. Islam is not something that can be inherited or passed on etc.//
Really? So, you were not born into a Muslim family? What a chump you are. You are 100% certain that you would have chosen Islam if you hadn’t been born into it? Really? That’s funny, because last time I checked, I’m pretty sure that the whole world was not Muslim.
I’m NOT sorry that you’re a Muslim, your system of belief is your choice and your issue, just don’t think that your right to manifest your religion is limitless, because it isn’t. Your rights end where my nose begins. Get that through your thick skull you ignorant individual. As I said, I’m not sorry that you’re a Muslim. I AM sorry that you’re an ignorant, intolerant one.
I am an Agnostic not because I “doubt” the existence of God, but because I cannot prove nor disprove God’s existence. I believe in some sort of creator, but I do not believe that it is male, or scary, or hates women as much as the Gods of the Abrahamic faiths. I believe that it is full of love. Difference between you and me? I don’t care if you don’t share my beliefs. I have no interest in proselytising what I believe. That’s why, I’m an Agnostic. I am not full of arrogant certitude like you and your ilk. Saying “I don’t know” is humble. Your position is far from humble. It’s supremacist.
//Most of all, I am sorry about whatever made you so hateful and bitter about Islam.//
It is idiots like you that give your own religion the bad press that it gets. You are responsible front and centre and you provide the racist right wing with fodder to peddle its ideologies. People like you are the reason why right wing movements are gaining more members. Prove that I am hateful and bitter about Islam. Go on. Prove it. Where have I insulted Islam?
Thank you for proving that you fit the stereotype that the far right peddles so willfully thanks to the Anjem Choudarys of the world.
Stop looking for enemies where there aren’t any. I expressed an opinion based on my experiences. I did not attack Islam. You showed lack of empathy to my experiences and have now caused me to lose any possible empathy I might have had for your side of the story too. You attacked my view just like the EDL would attack you if you wrote a blog post about your experiences of racism and genuine anti-Muslim hatred. People like you and the far right are two sides of the same coin. You deny that my experience and commentary is genuine, just like they deny that your experiences and commentary are genuine.
Get yourself a library membership and stop mouthing off with such arrogance, ignorance and lack of ethics.
I just realised you replied, so to clear up a few things:
When I wrote that reply I was pretty pissed off if you will about some of the things you wrote therefore I assumed several things about you and so I apologise. Nevertheless you have also assumed things about me.
1. When I pointed out that Muslim women had their rights 1400 years I did not in any way say I agreed with the current ‘Muslim’ states, in fact I liked your use of ‘Saudi Barbaria’ funnily enough.
2. I don’t agree with sending your kids ‘back home’ under false pretences nor did I imply I did.
3. Again where did I say I ‘Don’t give a damn about women’s right NOT to cover’? There ‘is no compulsion in religion’, (al-Baqarah 2:256 ). If a woman wants to wear a hijab for Allah’s sake, no one can stop her and in turn if a woman DOESN’T want to wear a hijab no one can stop her. She is free to do as she pleases and it’s between her and her God. No state can dictate what a person wears so Saudi’s subjugation of women is similar to France banning the niqab, they are just opposite ends of the spectrum.
This stupid misconception that misogynistic men (and women) and oddly some ‘femininists’ tout; of Allah ordering women to wear the hijab and/or cover up to SAVE themselves from men , as if men are some kind of monsters who can’t control their sexual desires and instead of them being taught to respect women, it’s the WOMEN who are taught to behave differently. In turn some people using this as some kind of weapon to control women because hey it’s a divine ruling as is the case with Saudi and Iran.
[It’s not simply an order from the creator, even Muslim scholars have not reached a consensus on this. How have you? What are your qualifications in Islamic studies to make such a judgement?’]
It is simply an order from the creator first and foremost, everything else comes after that and that’s my opinion, similar to it being your opinion (or from what I’ve gathered) that it isn’t. It is a tad arrogant to assume that simply because you don’t see it that way or heard of this that it doesn’t exist. You say ‘Muslim scholars’ this implies ALL with no distinction whatsoever, so I put it to you, what are your qualifications in Islamic studies to make such a judgement?
4. I don’t ‘condone the sexual objectification of a little girl’ and I never did. It was your conclusion that covering up is ‘sexually objectifying’ girls. You tied the two together, that’s YOUR opinion so you reaching this conclusion because of my beliefs and assuming something about me is wrong.
[‘I’m sick of women like you looking down on others who don’t wear the hijab and being surprised when people treat them with the same condescension that you dish out.’]
5. In what part of my comment did I say anything about people who don’t dress the way I do? I was defending my faith and you seem to have understood it to mean that I was one of those Quran waving, arrogant, flag burning maniacs that wants to force Islam on anybody when in fact that goes against the very core of what I believe and practice.
[By reading, one learns and one questions. It is so lame that you are willing to submit to literalist interpretations of uneducated mullahs, muftis etc. You are the reason why Muslims contribute nothing even comparable to the times of Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Arabi, Rumi etc today. Because you think that your pseudo-intellectual understanding of your religion through going to sisters circles and “Googling stuff” makes you some kind of authority on religion and morality….that your views are more important to the views of someone like me. You possess no humanity and you see none in anyone else unless they absolutely conform to your own beliefs.]
6. I don’t even know where to start here! You don’t even KNOW me and according to you I’m to blame for Muslims ‘contributing nothing…’? Psuedo-intellectual, going to sisters circles and ‘googling stuff’. Get off your bloody high horse for lack of other words.
Apart from the obvious fact that you seem to see me as scapegoat for all that is wrong with the current state of the Muslims, I’m sorry to say that I don’t conform to your idea of a ‘typical’ Muslim woman. My opinions are actually MY opinions what a shocker eh! I never claimed I was some sort of authority of any kind for that matter.
And another thing ‘you posses no humanity’ where on earth did you get THAT!
I did not doubt that your experiences etc. were genuine. You need to understand that because I didn’t pour out all my ideas, thoughts, opinions etc. I was disagreeing with all your points, I was giving my opinion on some of them.
Overall you have taken my comment and did a wonderful Daily Mail-esque spin on it. You called me arrogant, ignorant and without any ethics. You generalised and painted me as some sort of scapegoat again for all that you hate about Muslims, in that you assumed in your arrogance and profound ignorance that a Muslim woman, who defends the hijab and/or scholars couldn’t have her own opinions, defend her beliefs and actually have her own functioning mind. There’s nothing more despicable than people who flog the stereotypical ideas of Muslim women in their own self righteousness. You should join me and people that surround me for a cuppa and then you might understand that there is such a thing as Muslim women who wear the hijab because they wanted to; are open minded, tolerant, proud, speak their minds, AND defend their right to be seen as equals.
All in all, your beliefs are your beliefs and my beliefs are mine and that’s that.
WOW! Bravo! Couldn’t agree with you more and what a clear, astute retort. If only people would really read and understand, rather than skewing and interpreting, what is written.
such a waste of time
I’m sorry that you think that. Mind telling us why?
Agreed. Culture mixed with religion sure does mess things up. its funny how people pick and choose religion. They want pious daughters to uphold notions of false pride and forget that actually men should lower their gaze first lol. hate how ppl can be so sexist. Also agree that racism is deeply ingrained in our ‘culture’. It’s sickening.
Mass education is needed, in fact a complete refinement of manners and habits. Being Muslim does not entitle us to superiority or salvation even. It is this idea that we are on the straight path that destroys us. No one has a passport to heaven but many believe they do, i think from here humanity ends.
Anyone who claims to believe in a greater being should have the best manners and actions. Fullstop. but nope religion corrupts people wen it should nourish the soul.
Thanks for letting me rant. loved ur article its very well written. Keep it up.
I got on your site through a thread on the Goat’s Milk Debate, where I thought you were profound and enlightening. While much of what you say in this post is accurate, it is also problematic in many ways, much like the work of Irshad Manji who you appear to admire. You write about being profiled at airports “regardless of the fact that I’m Agnostic”. This implies that it it would be fair to profile you if you were were a believer (and if that can be scientifically gauged). Also your bold (pun intended) question “When’s the last time a secularist burned effigies and blew stuff up?” is mired in both ignorance and implicit phobia of religion if not Islam. The slaughter of millions of human beings in the 20th century was not over religion, even the Holocaust as many European scholars will tell you was born out of through a progressive notion of time. As Terry Eagleton wittily put it: Swap you the Inquisition for chemical warfare. Thus your point about this being a critique of dogma does not fit well. I think your efforts would be better directed at points within your culture which you have clearly demonstrated are bubbling with hypocrisy and blindness.
Also, even whilst disagreeing with one of your detractors on this thread, I was surprised again to read your own response to it. For example, referring to people as “idiots”. The word “idiot” is abusive because it is actually about people who have developmental disabilities with no fault of their own.
//Much like the work of Irshad Manji who you appear to admire.//
I find her moral courage project a very useful tool but no this is in no way synonymous with admiring all of her work or agreeing with all of her political positions.
Re: Being profiled. I’ve already explained this to another individual on this thread but here we go. I think that unless it can be proven that “profiling” whether racial or religious actually reduces the incidence of terrorism? That it is a terrible idea. My point on profiling is simply this. Yes, it may be wrong and unless it is useful in preventing terrorism, we should challenge it. However, this does not change the fact that myself and many others (and this includes religious Muslims) are having to suffer the brunt of someone else’s actions. I’m totally entitled to be annoyed for being associated with an ideology that I abhorr. As much as I recognise that an Islamist and a Muslim is not the same thing, I also recognise that many Muslims are not sufficiently challenging Islamist inspired views and ideologies within their communities. As a result, everyone with a Muslim name is being targeted and hence, profiling is a civil liberties issue AND a Muslim self policing issue.
//”When’s the last time a secularist burned effigies and blew stuff up?” is mired in both ignorance and implicit phobia of religion if not Islam.//
Phobia means “irrational fear” so I think you’re using the wrong terms. Just like anyone else, I’m completely and unashamedly entitled to be rationally fearful of the teachings and/or practices of any religious group. Last time I checked? This was not an act of discrimination nor is it antithetical to having ethics and morality, so I’m not sure what your point is.
//The slaughter of millions of human beings in the 20th century was not over religion, even the Holocaust as many European scholars will tell you was born out of through a progressive notion of time.//
Really? Is that why Hitler said the following?
“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.”
I think that you need to familiarise yourself with Adolf Hitler’s religious leanings. Also Blair was a Catholic, Bush was an Episcopalian/United Methodist and said that “God wants me to be president”, the Balkans…what was that all about? Politics has struggled to extricate itself from religion in the entire 20th Century and the fact that you deny that is extremely worrying. There’s a wealth of literature out there which will confirm this for you. You don’t need to take my word for it.
I’m not for one second suggesting that it is not possible for a secular system to be abused, it is…but still it is less likely to be abused to the extent that religion is in the political and social spheres because thanks to religion, people can justify things under the guise of divine sanction that no moral person would otherwise do i.e. a bundle of joy enters the world “I know, let’s hack its foreskin/clitoris off”. It’s quite obvious that for good and otherwise moral people to say and do despicable things, it takes religion….divine sanction.
As for your comment about the word idiot. This is the first time in my life that someone has presented such a definition of the word. Looks like you’re just clutching at straws. The word “idiot” is commonly used in the English language as a word that is derogatory, but hardly the worst that anyone could be called. I am completely against ableism or any other form of discrimination so, your assumption that I was referring to a developmental disability is way, way off the mark.
I have no dog in this fight, so I say this with all due respect, but as one with a background in Special Education, the term, “idiot,” is in fact one of the technical classifications of mental retardation, which, while that certainly explains its frequent use, does not justify it.
pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
Understood. Thanks for highlighting this.
One other thing, I have no issue whatsoever with what people believe as long as a) That belief is not practiced in a way that is harmful to others b) it is not manifested in a public space or in a way that encroaches upon the right of others to “freedom FROM religion”.
The right to believe what you want to believe is absolute. Manifestation of religion however, is limited under domestic and international law.
For me, this is the essence of what secularism means.
“it is not manifested in a public space or in a way that encroaches upon the right of others to “freedom FROM religion”.”
I would suggest you acquaint yourself with serious, peer-reviewed reading on anthropology, sociology and politics. Your characterisation of Hitler as a believing Christian is wide off the mark. One can pluck quotes from him to show a demonstrable belief, not just words, of eugenics and neo-Darwinism. Also you clearly are misinformed about the nature of the public sphere on topics like “religion” and “secularism”. These arguments are not your own, merely repeating that of people like Maryam Namazie who has her own agenda. No serious scholar, outside media pundits, makes these sort of arguments. The public space is for the public, both religious and non-religious, and no one should push “any” agenda. The word “idiot” has its roots in developmental psychology, and referring to people you disagree with as “idiots” clearly shows lack of manners and ethics.
“I’m not for one second suggesting that it is not possible for a secular system to be abused, it is…but still it is less likely to be abused to the extent that religion is in the political and social spheres because thanks to religion, people can justify things under the guise of divine sanction that no moral person would otherwise do i.e. a bundle of joy enters the world “I know, let’s hack its foreskin/clitoris off”. It’s quite obvious that for good and otherwise moral people to say and do despicable things, it takes religion….divine sanction.”
Again I suggest you do some reading before peddling this New Atheist apologia. Incidentally you are making arguments I have heard both the Christian Right and Muslim fundamentalists make.
“it is not manifested in a public space or in a way that encroaches upon the right of others to “freedom FROM religion”.”
This quote refers to the law. Look at ICCPR Article 18, clause 3 http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm#art18
Look at ECHR case law (e.g. Sahin v Turkey) which the UK is obliged to take into consideration.
Look at this (written by an Algerian woman who doesn’t comment on her religious beliefs but has a Muslim name) http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=989066
It has taken centuries for international and domestic laws to evolve to the stage that they’re at today. They limit manifestation of religion for a reason. If you have a problem with the law, challenge it.
Atheists and Agnostics do not go around “manifesting” their beliefs until people start trying to enforce their religious laws on the entire population. Abstinence only education bills (failed thankfully), anti-same sex marriage commentary by religious establishments including the CofE of which the Queen is the head, Sharia Councils charging a man £200 and a woman £400 for a “religious divorce” that has absolutely no impact upon an individual’s marital status under UK law. This despite knowing that poverty is feminised. Go click on the links to the Khula and Talaq forms here if you don’t believe me http://www.islamic-sharia.org/ Are you not ashamed to be defending this?
//Your characterisation of Hitler as a believing Christian is wide off the mark.//
That was not what I did. I showed you that Hitler stated that his beliefs were sanctioned by religious teachings….I don’t care who you regard to be Christian. If someone uses Christian teachings to justify genocide, then unfortunately, a religion is what its people do. There are many others like him in the world that will take the quotes about Jews, homosexuals, polygamy and so on, and will use religion to justify it. Pick your fight with them, not with me.
//These arguments are not your own, merely repeating that of people like Maryam Namazie who has her own agenda.//
LOL! I don’t even see eye to eye with Maryam Namazie on several things so this is the most absurd of your accusations. I have emailed her on two separate occasions in disagreement with her tactics and things that she has specifically said. My arguments are those of legal scholars and academics worldwide…funnily enough, many of them from the Muslim tradition e.g. Wassyla Tamzali, Karima Bennoune, Marieme Helie Lucas, Kenan Malik, Tahir Abbas. Then there are others like Catharine MacKinnon, Gita Sahgal, Pragna Patel, Ariane Brunet.
//No serious scholar, outside media pundits, makes these sort of arguments.//
I’m afraid you don’t know the literature very well then as I’ve illustrated above. There are thousands of articles out there which support my position. I’ve read a significant proportion of them and my opinions evolve with my learning.
Not going to get into absurd exchanges about the meaning of everyday language. You want to win an argument? Try being intellectually honest. It’s a good place to start.
As for lack of manners, I don’t feel the need to be polite to people who deliberately misrepresent what I write and call me an Islamophobe just to stunt my criticism. Of course, you must have failed to notice how many Pakistanis and Muslims have commented on this thread saying that they agree with my comments?
//Again I suggest you do some reading before peddling this New Atheist apologia. Incidentally you are making arguments I have heard both the Christian Right and Muslim fundamentalists make.//
Firstly, I’m not an atheist and secondly, yes…fundamentalists make arguments against circumcision…of course they do. Name one….just one dear friend.
Stop looking for enemies where there are none in your midst. I, like every one else with some sense of morality and ethics just want the human rights of the individual to be the most important thing that drives our society…not the human rights of a group…particularly a group that routinely organises against free speech, women’s rights and democracy. Simples.
Wender shows a clear lack of due diligence when with One can pluck quotes from him to show a demonstrable belief, not just words, of eugenics and neo-Darwinism. Go ahead and try. You will fail. You’ll find – if you bother to actually learn from history – not one word from Hitler about Darwin. You’ll find Churchill commenting on Darwin but not Hitler:
(“From November to May I read for four or five hours every day history and philosophy. Plato’s Republic it appeared he was for all practical purposes the same as Socrates; the Politics of Aristotle, edited by Dr. Welldon himself; Schopenhauer on Pessimism; Malthus on Population; Darwin’s Origin of Species: all interspersed with other books of lesser standing.”)
In fact, with a bit of research from Darwin’s own writings on the subject, you’ll find he viewed all men as one species and held a strong contrary view of any benefits from eugenics for humanity. But why let historical accuracy get in the way of a promoting lies favourable to falsely elevating some religious belief?
As is absolutely typical of creationist distortions, among the attacks on evolution are the endlessly-repeated allegations that Darwin’s theory promotes racism, which is a lie, and he was somehow responsible for the eugenics movement. Hitler himself credits Haeckel’s evolutionary eugenic arguments (translated by Bronn) that undergirded the Nazi eugenic program. Even Karl Gibberson, lately of BioLogos fame, writes in this essay:
[I]f there is this strong connection between Darwin and Hitler, it is interesting that Hitler’s biographers all seem to have missed it. Experts on the deranged architect of the holocaust have spent countless hours tracing the origins of Hitler’s virulent anti-Semitism and none of them have discovered this link to Darwin.
But this supposed Darwin link is ironic, particularly regarding racism, given the close association that anti-evolutionists like William Jennings Bryan and other highly influential religious leaders (Luther, anyone?) have traditionally had with promoting racism to honour their god. Oh… let’s not forget misogyny and bigotry to round out the earthly Holy Trinity.
Wender writes Your characterisation of Hitler as a believing Christian is wide off the mark. Oh really? Why did those belt buckles have Gott Mit Uns stamped on them? Why did the rc church publish a poster widely distributed with eight ‘good’ reasons to support Hitler (1. the Faith is protected, 2. peace with the Church is assured, 3. public morality is preserved, 4. Sunday is hallowed, 5. Catholic schools are maintained, 6. the Catholic conscience is no longer burdened, 7. a Catholic has equal rights before the law and in the life of the nation, 8. Catholic organisations and associations, insofar as they exclusively serve religious, charitable and cultural purposes, can operate freely.)? Hitler speeches, writings, and implemented policies are full of religious privilege, religious references, and religious reasons to support him and his governance. To claim he was an atheist means disregarding history and inserting a belief contrary to what we know was true in fact.
So take your own advice, Wender, and acquaint yourself with reality. It would help a very great deal to further honest dialogue if you were to do so rather than become just another apologetic mouthpiece ready, willing, and able, to pontificate about the knowledge-based shortcomings of others with whom you disagree on religious grounds when you are so liberally endowed with your own.
I am well aware of the OCHCR. It is right on target. It is you who needs to read it since it does not merely cover religious belief but any sort of belief or worldview, and warns against the imposition of that on others, including hammering secularism down the throats of reluctant peoples which occurred in Pol Pot’s reign. This is the point I made, the public space must accommodate the public whether they believe or not. You appear to think that “the public” must only accommodate your beliefs and ideas. Your persistent ignorance of Hitler and the Holocaust and continual sloganeering of how he claimed to be a Christian are wide off the mark. It does seem you are unaware of both the positive and negative effects of the European Enlightenment, including its effect on the Holocaust, that has been written about by great European thinkers. It is much more complicated than a few choice slogans that exempt you from reflective learning.
I wrote you need to acquaint yourself with serious literature and research on these subjects, not just sources that confirm a self-righteous glow around your particular worldview. Should I take the Neanderthals of New Atheism to mean “all atheists”. What do you mean by this “particular group”. Is it “the Muslims”? If so, all your words up to now, including on the Goatmilk Debate, make no sense. Over there you claim to be speaking for Muslim feminism, over here you talk about the divine sanctioning ugly things and are indicting that “particular group”. You largely failed to answer much of my criticism, and merely amplified what you wrote before. This suggests both ignorance and a lack of critical reflection.
There is no need for me to respond to the points within this comment since you seem to think that the OCHCR i.e. Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights is a document that I should read. F**k my life.
I’m sorry, but I don’t have time for fools.
Feel free to keep posting your drivel all over my blog Wender. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest, nor does it change the fact that you have no argument.
I didn’t mean to claim the OCHCR was a document, it was a reference to the document released in its name. I concede my wording was inaccurate, it was not “satire”. I don’t wish to twist that, and I willingly concede my error there.
As for posting drivel, I can only follow the sun as it shines on the waters you have muddied by your own effort by your lack of research and study of matters you have been unable to back up, thus responding with exasperated glibness. I have no interest in posting on or visiting your blog again. Your or my lack of manners and ethics, the latter a proud word you claim for yourself, are for the readers to judge, or better yet God. My primary contention was with your half-baked arguments regarding religion and the Holocaust which do not stand up to reality, scholarship and social research.
Brave. Brilliant. Witty. Intelligent. Informed. Confrontational. Direct. Sensible. Kudos for having an opinion, sticking to it AND backing it up.
By far the best rant I’ve come across in quite a while! You touch on everything that makes my own blood boil! Brilliantly done!
Your post was reprinted on thinkatheist.com, where it was well received as the powerful piece that it is. Thomas Paine, American author, proved that injustice can be fought as effectively with the pen, as with the sword. Don’t restrict your writing to the blogosphere – you have a serious talent and a definite passion, use these to the fullest.
pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
http://www.in-His-own-image.com
Thank you very much for your praise and words of encouragement.
Best wishes.
I love this. I live reading it and re-reading it. I’m not a Muslim but I am tarnished with the same brush as the bearded lot because i share their skin colour. My life is made worse because of them.
angry,but narrow. you forgot to explore other side of muslim community, which fight all these you mentioned above. plus you are LGBT-friendly, anti-misogyny etc. because you are educated about these matters not because you are atheist /agnostic. atheists can support backward ideas like anybody else. get out more, explore more.
There isn’t one “Muslim community” as you describe and I have yet to meet a religious Muslim from the UK that were LGBT friendly and anti-misogyny. I know people who are culturally Muslim yet Agnostic or Atheist who oppose homophobia and misogyny, but that’s it as far as the Muslim connection goes.
I agree that there are indeed atheists and agnostics who are misogynist or homophobic however in my experience, this is less common than in the religious masses. To be an atheist or agnostic implies a level of rational thinking. Rational people tend to know that one’s humanity is not defined by one’s choice of partner or biological sex. Irrational people do not and many religious folk tend to be irrational.
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My dear sister, I read your post. Please take this advice from me: read the Quran.. Read it with Its translation if you don’t understand arabic. And it’s nice to see that you have an open mind, but do read it with an open heart too.
And say this prayer, oh Allah if you really exist please guide me to yourself. Keep saying it and keep searching, and recognise the signs as they appear.
May Allah be with you.
Stop chillaxin with those crazy mullahs
Get out more
Guy – RE: I’m an American atheist, living in a land of crazy Christians, with whom I disagree as much as theopinionista does with those of the religion into which she was born, through no fault of her own. I seriously doubt she is socializing with Mullahs, and while getting out more may serve as a temporary diversion, it alleviates nothing, as she takes her issues with her, as we all do.
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A pretty powerful and thought provoking piece, well done indeed. I see from some comments though that some are offended by the article, which I guess isn’t surprising. It seems those, of any religion, who are strong believers do not like their faith criticised and challenged. But any religion or belief system will never mature unless it is challenged and those who practise it are brave enough to accept the failings and the bad parts and modernise. I believe Islam is now going though the kind of backlash and scrutiny that Christianity did a few hundred years ago, and is reacting in much the same way, with violence and hatred at having their core beliefs challenged. I would ask those who are religious why do you think your religion should not be criticised, debated over and hopefully modernised?. Is your God and your religion so fragile that you cannot have it challenged and have to resort to violence to protect it?. Those are hardly the actions of a faith and a God of peace, love and tolerance. Islam currently has a very bad image as a direct result of those who resort to violence and intimidation, those who seek to stifle debate and free speech. By all means stick up for your faith, but do it through peaceful means by directly debating with and engaging with those who criticise. The actions of those Muslims reacting with violence to a provocative and idiotic YouTube video just this week show the stereotype that many have of Islam being an intolerant and violent religion is often justified unfortunately. It does the millions of peaceful, law abiding Muslims absolutely no favours at all. The sometimes awful reactions of family members when a Muslim man or woman goes against them also shows a complete lack of intolerance, bigotry and sometimes racism too. I have a close Muslim friend, who loves his religion, but cannot properly practise his faith nor have any contact with his family. His crime?, he is gay. There are many moderate Muslims, including Imams around the World, who want to debate, who want their faith they love to modernise and throw off the shackles of the past, but unfortunately their voices are often stifled by such accusations of being anti-Islamic. A real shame.
Oops, that should say “a complete lack of tolerance and a high level of bigotry and racism too”.
Wow , you are freakin’ fierce. Love all of your posts. As an American, Agnostic female from a Muslim family myself, I can relate to these posts. Keep it up and never stop writing.